The Cauldron

Good for you. :) Even under all this pressure, you're standing by your own thoughts, and not being overwhelmed by my overbearing personality. I will now back off. Now, what was the topic of this thread?

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman

It's about F'dor children and Rhapsody's decision to "save" all of them and not tell Ashe. Which bothers and disturbs me!

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Avatar by ME

After re-reading the SOA series, I actually now find Ashe very likable and no longer find him as such an annoyance as I did when I first read the series through. I guess I noticed his "awesomeness," a little bit better now.

Anyway!

Personally, I don't even know if I would have gone after the children in the first place, let alone choose to taking the pain for them. I probably would had been Achmed, cwellen in hand, taking out those "F'dor vermin," and heading back to whatever I was doing before. Cruel right?

The whole "dream candle," wasn't that big of a deal at the time, it was just interesting to see Jo suddenly leap back into Rhapsody's life, exchange some words of wisdom, and than leap back out again. Also, I think Constantine did indeed deserve the "dream experience," Rhapsody gave him because he went throughout his life never knowing love, and she gave him that and ended up saving his soul in the end. But if Constantine came up to me and said, well, you know, I would had probably tried to kick him (and miss! ) and than turn away, all red in the face and stomp off in the opposite direction! While Constantine smirks and shouts some more "immoral," comments at my back while I fume off.

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Mri Niun wrote:

After re-reading the SOA series, I actually now find Ashe very likable and no longer find him as such an annoyance as I did when I first read the series through. I guess I noticed his "awesomeness," a little bit better now.

Anyway!

Personally, I don't even know if I would have gone after the children in the first place, let alone choose to taking the pain for them. I probably would had been Achmed, cwellen in hand, taking out those "F'dor vermin," and heading back to whatever I was doing before. Cruel right?

The whole "dream candle," wasn't that big of a deal at the time, it was just interesting to see Jo suddenly leap back into Rhapsody's life, exchange some words of wisdom, and than leap back out again. Also, I think Constantine did indeed deserve the "dream experience," Rhapsody gave him because he went throughout his life never knowing love, and she gave him that and ended up saving his soul in the end. But if Constantine came up to me and said, well, you know, I would had probably tried to kick him (and miss! ) and than turn away, all red in the face and stomp off in the opposite direction! While Constantine smirks and shouts some more "immoral," comments at my back while I fume off.

...Ashe is an annoyance to Achmed, is as far as I will go

no...not cruel. I can't see myself saving everyone, either

Constantin also was the only one who felt the needle. I think it's payback.

I agree with the last paragraph

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Avatar by ME

Yeah eternal light, I used to feel the same way about Ashe. Constantin is an annoyance, but turns out for the better at least.

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

To me, Rhapsody seems to have drawn some inspiration from the Buddhist bodhisattva, Quan Yin, (here is a summary and story which closely parallels Rhapsody, and wiki) and so her actions seem right in line with the Compassionate One.  It is interesting to note that one of the demonspawn children had the name of Quan Li!

One of the reasons why I think I like Rhapsody so much is that she shares many of the same qualities as Quan Yin. 

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"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

Mri Niun wrote:

Yeah eternal light, I used to feel the same way about Ashe. Constantin is an annoyance, but turns out for the better at least.

Mmmhmm. It's pretty funny how he returned to the world of the living right after the "other" Constantin, the gladiator, disappeared :)

Krinsel--Rhaps does have a bit in common with Quan Yin. Not much, but close to the same personality type...

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Avatar by ME

Yeah... very funny. Indeed.

*Mri Niun snickers and tries to keep in mind that this is a Destiny thread.*

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Mri, what are you hinting at? Does this need to become a discussion in The Whole Thing? (so you can explain? )

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Avatar by ME

Nah, I don't think there is any need of explaining. Its already too obvious, I just like to exaggerate a bit, so don't worry too much on it eternal light.

Seeing that this is Constantine we are talking about, we already know what he becomes, but if anybody has read past Destiny, they know what he does for the Alliance. I said enough already to hint at what I' am hinting at. Anybody else will have to read past Destiny to figure out what I' m hinting at.

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Yes, I definitely agree that Constantine has been a crucial help to the Alliance after Destiny. I absolutely wanted to knock his lights out when I first met him in the story, but he certainly pays his dues later I would say....

Also, speaking of Rhapsody taking the pain for the F'dor offspring, and many of the other selfless things she does, she has definitely become one of the people I most admire. Does anyone else feel like I do and many times a day try to handle things as Rhapsody would? (Hopefully I don't sound weird lol)

I wouldn't want to try to handle things as Rhapsody does. It's all well and good to be selfless and is certainly an admirable quality, however, she has no limits. She does things that put her in danger or pain or whatever sometimes needlessly, or where the problem isn't necessarily her business (can't remember a specific example here, but whatever). I think I'd give myself a stomach ulcer if I tried to do things like Rhapsody.

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If science could fail,a mountain's a mammal.[..]
--luckily for us,a mountain is a mammal.
~E.E.Cummings

Besides asking, "What would Jesus do?" We simply ask instead, "What would Rhapsody do?"

LOL!

I'm with you AEsahættr. You couldn't get me to take all that pain for the children, or go to the extent of collecting the children themselves, even the dangerous Gladiator, and taking them all back to the Veil of Hoen to remove the F'dor blood. Of course, I already explained this...

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Sort of playing devil's advocate here...

Imagine though if the world were made up of many more people like Rhapsody. I don't mean all the magic, Namer's abilities, and flaming swords, now. But what if most people really lived in such a way to make the lives of those around them better. Maybe the real thing that Rhapsody has is an underlying ability to see into the heart of things from a compassionate light, something that is greatly lacking from nearly every other character in the books. Maybe Rhapsody is replacing their lack of compassion.

Now, I wouldn't do what Rhapsody has done myself either, as I believe I have already stated; however, Rhapsody often times gives voice to those who have none, and loves the unlovable (Achmed, Jo, the children of the F'dor, even Grunthor, who is not exactly describes as dashingly handsome himself and we all know that looks to matter to the way people are treated even if they shouldn't) and has brought love into lives that had perhaps lost hope of it (Oelendra, Anborn). She sees the good in people who others have not bothered to even look too deeply into (Constatine, Llauron). And without getting into any religious discussion here, keep in mind that one of the things that Jesus told His followers to do was to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and give shelter to those without it. He was known for loving the unlovable Himself. In other words, He wanted His followers to have real compassion. Aside from the sword fighting (He perhaps might not have done that while He was here. ) He probably would have completely understood Rhapsody.

So my point is, I think it is a great plan to ask what Rhapsody would do. I might not do everything she'd do, but the world would be much better if we all showed each other the compassion she does.

 (Says the hard-nosed lady who prefers dragons...LOL!)

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Avie pic by me.
Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it. ~ The Blues Brothers (1980)

I don't think Rhapsody would want us to follow her example to the letter, though.   

Remember that the walk through the Core intensified and enhanced all of the qualities which made Rhapsody, Rhapsody.  Not many of us (if any of us) have ever had an experience like she did, and so can't comprehend what motivates her actions.  She was self-sacrificing in her "old life", but somewhat prompted by guilt.  She didn't want to "sacrifice" herself to the life of a farm wife with no adventure, no choices, and ran away, chasing a dream that she was determined to make real. 

When she "woke up", she realized the pain that she must have caused her family, but without a way to get back to where she started - giving her guilt that was difficult to bear.  The walk through the core multiplied that feeling exponentially, now in an all consuming (as Fire's negative aspect) remorse, which she couldn't let go of, since Fire merged with her as part of her essence.

ETA:  Val, I think even He might have if He had the motivation behind Him, as shown in The Temple Scene from Jesus Christ Superstar.

ETA2: As I thought about this a little more, it occurred to me that it seems that our ability to make choices dictates a lot in the Series.  The Demonspawn had no choice in what made them come into existence, and if their first experiences of compassion were linked with incredible pain and suffering to "purge" their taint (after having been so lovingly tended to by Rhapsody on the trip to the Veil), it could have colored their world for the rest of their lives in distrust, resentment and hate.  Constantin at least had some memory of the pain he was missing, after having been the example to show Rhapsody what it took to remove that which would eventually benefit everyone,  by leading the Pathfinder's way to the F'dor's host.  He was "of age" to make choices for himself, yet he was enslaved as a gladiator (although he was very good at what he did), and Rhapsody refused to let him pay for a choice which he did not make consciously for himself. 

We can argue that Rhapsody did not choose many of the things which came her way, but I think it stems back to the fact that she longed for a life of adventure over the "barbaric" practices of small town life, and so she chose to run away.  She recognized that she made this choice, just as her mother chose to live her life within a human community and subject herself to its "strange" customs, no matter what prejudice she might have faced as a result of it.  We have to be responsible for our own choices, and not seek to blame others when a choice we have made doesn't turn out like we expected it to.  Now Rhapsody seems an extreme case of overcompensation , but that is what makes the story so interesting, doesn't it?

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"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

Eh, Krinsel, so many wink-y smiley faces!

I think that after "Gwydion" left, Rhapsody might have suddenly found that she wanted to do something with her life, and wanted to do it enough that she actually went and left?

I agree that Rhapsody's unusual case of compassion was an essential part of what made the books so interesting.

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Avatar by ME

What can I say...I'm feeling very twitchy today - probably from the Diet Coke I had for breakfast!lol  

Thought this song might have some significance to the thread too.

You could be right, but the longing for adventure out of monotony is a big temptation, and she was chasing Gwydion after all.  I dunno, sometimes I just ramble on when the spirit moves me.

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"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

I think you are right,Krin. Emily already had the desire to leave. She already wanted more than to simply be a farmers wife. She wanted to see the world. Remember how she told Sam that she wanted to go see her grandfather's ship? No, I think Emily already had the drive to leave, but she would have stayed there with Sam/Gwydion if she'd had that chance, because of her love for him. When he was taken away, she felt that drive even stronger.

It's true that her life as Rhapsody changed her in ways that most of us cannot understand, but I don't think that the Fire made the guilt she felt a more intense or permanent part of her. Remember that all of their old wounds also disappeared. Perhaps those emotional wounds would have as well, but their minds wouldn't let them release them. Anyway, I really think that the guilt she feels is all from her; you know how we tend to hang onto guilt as humans. I think also that she was already a very compassionate person to begin with, and all she went through made her more compassionate (though with many people it would have made them harder).

ETA: LOL Yeah, maybe in that one part, Krin! I think people forget that He got pretty ticked off at least in that one instance.

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Avie pic by me.
Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it. ~ The Blues Brothers (1980)

OT:  I'm really enjoying this conversation! lol

I think that the physical imperfections were wiped clean, but what they carried with them emotionally made the transition over and was influenced by what Rhapsody added into the Song as each made his passage. 

Rhapsody was a pure soul, which anyone else could see, but she herself was blind to that reality.  If she could see it, it would end up taking away from her "innocence" which was intensified and renewed as she passed through the flames - making her even more pure in the process.  She was essentially untouched by what others assumed of her - though she was harsh enough to consistently judge herself in a negative light (through the enhanced negative side of fire?).  There must always a balance, and the negative aspects of her personality seemed to focus on her own self evaluation, while affording her more warm and comforting (positive aspects of fire) assessments to Others.  If there wasn't this balance, she would be in a constant state of flux, like Ashe and his dragon nature which constantly looked for the dominant state.  By keeping this even keel, she could move forward through her life, oblivious to her own perfections yet seeing everything around her for the underlying truth it contains. 

Hmm...underlying truth- that is kind of an oxymoronic statement, isn't it?

You know, I'm wondering if some of this conversation can be taken over to Behind the Scenes for some more intensive study that isn't SoA exclusive.  In particular, I wanted to post something about The Pearly Gates (influenced somewhat by my reading of The Divine Comedy) and the uses of Pearls as holding bits of memories - that essentially bar our way from entry into Heaven.  Anyone interested in pursuing this topic over there?

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"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

Wow, what a conversation...I would jump in (I'm eager to), but I just konked my head pretty hard, and I'm not thinking straight. And I will be interested in discussing the Pearly Gates, K.

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman