The Cauldron

No worries, Val, Constantin helps out at a very important wedding at the end of Destiny.

---

"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

Sam I am. wrote:

 

I also never liked that whole dream candle thing with Jo.  It wasn’t even real right?  It was just Rhapsody’s mind projecting what she desired---which was Jo’s happiness.  Or was it really Jo’s voice and thoughts?  Anyway, I feel that EH was trying to have her cake and eat it too.  She should have left Jo completely dead or brought her completely back.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to agree with SIA for this one.  Even though his wording is harsher than I would have described it.

 

And the responses to this were more from the point of view of the characters and storylines, rather than from the point of view of the writer. 

 

EH uses this scene for closure, to relieve Rhapsody of her guilt at her sister's hands.  And I've gotta say, I really don't care for this kind of closure.   In my humble opinion, it's too convenient of a way to wrap up their relationship.  A number of people have told me they didn't like the handling of this "closure" but they never knew why.  I think it is just a cop-out on EH's part (not to descredit her writing or anything...she's a brilliant writer, I just think she took the easy road with this one).

 

There are any number of ways she could give Rhapsody closure with her "sister".  One idea I had, off the top of my head, is that Jo left a diary of sorts behind or letter or something to that affect. (But I'm no professional )

---

You know you're an SoA geek when a person dies and you describe them as having "Ended".

Jo didn't seem like the diary writing kind of girl to me, but who knows!  But I agree that the candle dream thing was too convenient.  I was confused too, I wasn't sure if it was Rhapsody projecting (like SIA said) or if it really was Jo coming to her.  Either way, not my favorite part.

Now see, this was exactly the kind of closure that I was talking about in the "What is..." thread. Plus, this is the only time that I actually liked Jo. Okay, there was the one other time when she did what she did for Ving (was that the kid's name?) when he fell and broke his arm. I liked her then too, because she thought of someone besides herself, a seemingly unusual act for her. Also, I think that without this happening, Rhapsody could never have moved on from the guilt that she felt from leaving her mother and from Jo (although I never got what the heck she felt guilty about for her, except perhaps the way Jo died, which was not her fault). So really, I am glad EH did what she did here. Imagine how boring it would have been if Rhapsody was still going on about the "great wrongs" she did. (Gosh, that sounded harsh...) I mean, how could she have let go of her guilt and been able to grow without this?

---

Avie pic by me.
Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it. ~ The Blues Brothers (1980)

Valecynos wrote:

Okay, there was the one other time when she did what she did for Ving (was that the kid's name?) when he fell and broke his arm.

Close, Val.  Vling...

Also, Jo (at first) didn't know how to read or write, did she?  I thought I remember her talking to Rhapsody about it, and Rhapsody offering to teach her (since Rhaps had already taught Grunthor way back when...)

And then Jo read the letter from Rhapsody and Ashe and freaked out about it, but still...I agree that she doesn't seem like the type who would write her feelings/thoughts/emotions down, ESPECIALLY since they could be read by someone else (whereas when she keeps it inside, she's not vulnerable)

Valecynos wrote:

So really, I am glad EH did what she did here. Imagine how boring it would have been if Rhapsody was still going on about the "great wrongs" she did. (Gosh, that sounded harsh...)

I'm glad EH finally ended it too...I hated reading about the guilt Rhapsody went through even though the whole situation wasn't her fault at all.  I just didn't like the way she did it.

And I never though Jo as the type to write her feelings down (especially since she was illiterate) but everyone's written a note or letter at some point.  I'm not the type to express my emotions either, so I know it's a difficult thing to do for a character like Jo.  But a simple letter isn't that far out of the realm of possibility.  Plus, it was just a suggestion off the top of my head.  A better suggestion would be for Rhapsody to actually TALK to someone about her guilt and have them reassure her...like a real life situation...rather than an on-the-cusp-of-death-dream-candle-thing.

---

You know you're an SoA geek when a person dies and you describe them as having "Ended".

I think that in this scene that Jo wasn't acting like her charcter did in the first 2 books, but this never bothered me because she had been beyond the Veil and that had wrought changes in her.  But also part of it could have been Rhapsody's wishful thinking, because Jo never truly loved Rhaps like Rhaps loved her.  I never thought that the candle scene was a cop out, but I liked it because after that Rhapsody stopped whining...for a while.  The whole Veil of Hoen section was never my favorite part of the book either, but it was an important part of the plot.

---

"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

I thought that Jo and Rhapsody's relationship was very sibling-like, especially in the dynamic between the older "perfect" sister, and the younger one who never seemed to "measure up". 

If I remember correctly, the Lady Rowan told Rhapsody to be prepared for a visitor the night that "Jo" visited, so it was probably as real as anything else in the Veil was.   

---

"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

resimars417 wrote:

Heh. Sam I Am, you must not be so convinced in your thoughts on this matter if the very thought of arguing against AL makes you give up ^.o 

I always keep an open mind about things.  Except, I am steadfastly convinced that Sharon Stone should stop making Basic Instinct movies.

resimars417 wrote:

And Rhapsody, nobody deserves pain.  Pain is something that happens and inflicting pain or allowing pain to be inflicted are both bad things.  Constantin inflicted a lot of pain in his life, so yes, he did a lot of bad things, but does that mean that he deserves pain for it?  No.  Rhapsody took the high road, she did the good thing, which was not letting him feel pain.  Sure Constantin could have taken it, but he shouldn't have had to. 

IMO, finite physical pain that is not related to any life threatening illnesses is almost meaningless.  Chronic pain is truly hell, but occasional pain is called life.  Constantin should have not only taken his pain, but taken half of the other children’s pain also.

Well, it was a voluntary act undertaken by Rhapsody, herself.  She chose to take the pain for all of the Demon Spawn.  Would you deny a choice made freely by another which only concerns themselves, simply because you wanted to protect them from themselves? 

 I wouldn't be surprised if she hit you over the head with a rock for that one! lol

---

"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

That finite physical pain comes and goes for a period of over seven years if I recall...  I think that's still a little much for someone in his circumstance.  He never had a chance at a good life, someone to guide him, and tell him right from wrong.  Everything he learned, he learned from the skewed perception of the slave traders and gladiators.  He eventually bought his freedom and continued doing the only thing he knew how to do.  There's no way he could be truly considered to be at fault.  Rhapsody, being the good person she is knew she could not condemn him for his sad life.  She had had everything he lacked in life, and chose to leave it all behind, inflicting a much different kind of pain on the ones that loved her.  Rhapsody chose to take the pain for herself as she believed she was the only one among them that truly deserved any sort of punishment. 

And I think you're right on the Basic Instinct thing...  At least we can agree on something ^.o

Sam I am. wrote:

I also never liked that whole dream candle thing with Jo.  It wasn’t even real right?  It was just Rhapsody’s mind projecting what she desired---which was Jo’s happiness.  Or was it really Jo’s voice and thoughts?  Anyway, I feel that EH was trying to have her cake and eat it too.  She should have left Jo completely dead or brought her completely back.

Hmmm…  I think I was being too hard on EH before.  I was watching Ghost (whatever happened to Patrick Swayze anyway), and I had two thoughts (yes two); G.I. Jane was a really bad movie, and perhaps, all we can ever ask for in a life that guarantees only death, is the chance to say I love you and goodbye before we leave.

 

So I now say, let Rhapsody have her chance to say farewell to Jo.  Up until this point (Destiny) I don’t think she has ever had the chance to say goodbye to anyone she has loved before.  Let Rhapsody have her closure, we should all be so lucky.  *SIA pats himself on the back for being so understanding*  LOL.

That was actually really sweet.  Not the part about GI Jane being a bad movie, but the other thing.  o.o()

resimars417 wrote:

That was actually really sweet.

Heh, off course, it’s me we’re talking about.  LOL.

 

*note to self – Destiny thread*

 

But my compassion only extends towards Rhapsody; in general I still dislike the idea of the Veil of Hoen. 

 

When reading Fantasy I prefer it when the characters that die remain dead; even if it is a character I truly like.  Because that way, at least when a bad character dies, I will know I don’t have to worry about them anymore---ever.

 

Nothing irritates me more than when a evil person dies, and then I still have to read about him or her later on in the book when they unexpectedly pop back up again.

Hmmm...

(Warning: I'm in a very contemplative mood, watch out for random, disjointed observations! lol)

I wonder if the problem with an "evil" person dying and "coming back" is that the person represents "evil" (or "goodness" in the opposite extreme), to that particular perspective (ie. a personalized example for that particular person).  Just because that body dies, doesn't mean what they represent is gone.  Evil and/or Goodness aren't wiped out when one aspect of their characterizations is nullified, they simply merge seamlessly into another form. This seems to be a large reason as to why Meridion found it so difficult to isolate the particular threads which traced the progression of good and evil throughout Time.  

 

---

"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
Avatar by Krinsel

*note to self - Destiny thread*

Krinsel wrote:

(Warning: I'm in a very contemplative mood, watch out for random, disjointed observations! lol)

What?  We needed to give warnings for that kind of posts?  Oh, oh, then SIA is in some serious trouble.  LOL.

Krinsel wrote:

I wonder if the problem with an "evil" person dying and "coming back" is that the person represents "evil" (or "goodness" in the opposite extreme), to that particular perspective (ie. a personalized example for that particular person).  Just because that body dies, doesn't mean what they represent is gone.  Evil and/or Goodness aren't wiped out when one aspect of their characterizations is nullified, they simply merge seamlessly into another form.

Hmmm…  I wonder if the producers of Freddy Krueger, Michael Meyers, and Jason from Friday the 13th had this in mind?  Instead of just trying to milk every last dime out of their dying franchises; they were actually just trying to make the deep philosophical point that, “True evil never dies.”  LOL.  *just joking*

 

Of course, this does work both ways.  For example when the physical form of someone that is “truly good” dies, people often refuse to let the “message” of that person die along with them.  That person’s teachings and words are often passed along to future generations through the remembrance of their legacy.

Krinsel wrote:

This seems to be a large reason as to why Meridion found it so difficult to isolate the particular threads which traced the progression of good and evil throughout Time.

Yes, I think this is true, but also because good and evil are not always as purely defined as black and white.  Some people are both good and evil; take Achmed for example.  Does protecting the Sleeping Child in Destiny (and therefore the world) forgive the Bolg King’s sins of his past (prior to his introduction in Rhapsody, no matter if he was a slave or not)?

Sam I am. wrote:

from Destiny: Chapter 38, pg. 348 [American PB] (Rhapsody in the Veil of Hoen deciding which child’s pain to take)

 

Rhapsody stared at the floor.  “One or two?  How on earth could I ever choose?”

 

 

One of the parts in the book that really irritated me was when Rhapsody just had to take it upon herself to endure ALL of the suffering of those F'dor children in the Veil of Hoen.  It was like EH was trying to make her into a Christ figure or something. 

 

She could’ve just endured the pain on the babies’ behalf, and let the older ones (especially Constantin) tough it out on their own.  I think EH just likes to make Rhapsody suffer so the reader is forced to sympathize with her, but hasn’t Rhapsody suffered enough already?

 

 

from Destiny: Chapter 42, pg. 372 [American PB] (Rhapsody talking to the ghostly form of her sister)

 

“Is it really you, Jo?” she asked.  Her voice trembled…

“Of course not,” Jo replied, still intent…  “What you see is only what your memory tells you.”  She looked up and met Rhapsody’s eyes for the first time.  “But my love is with you.  You needed to see me, so I came, at least a little.”  

 

 

I also never liked that whole dream candle thing with Jo.  It wasn’t even real right?  It was just Rhapsody’s mind projecting what she desired---which was Jo’s happiness.  Or was it really Jo’s voice and thoughts?  Anyway, I feel that EH was trying to have her cake and eat it too.  She should have left Jo completely dead or brought her completely back.

 

 

from Destiny: Chapter 41, pg. 367 [American PB] (Constantin and Rhapsody’s dream form has just finished making “love”)

 

In his sleep, Constantin pulled her closer and sighed; the sound went to Rhapsody’s heart.  Ryle hira, she thought.  Life is what it is.  She just wished it weren’t so damned sad sometimes.

 

 

ARGH!!!  Why is Rhapsody sighing over Constatin.  How many girls has Constantin raped after his gladiator battles---I am betting a lot.  He should be castrated, so he could later become a eunuch, instead of a preacher. 

 

How she handled Constantin’s desire toward her also irritated me.  That whole dream candle thing where Rhapsody let him be with her dream form ticked me off.  He didn’t deserve even that!!!  I think that would only exacerbate his womanizing problem.

 

 

from Destiny: Chapter 39, pg 354 [American PB] (Constatin harassing Rhapsody in the Veil)

 

“Come with me,” he said soothingly.  I am no longer angry; I will be gentle with you.  You have nothing to fear; I won’t put it in all the way.  Pay your debt, Rhapsody.”

 

 

If I was Rhapsody, I would have just kicked him in the groin and then asked, “Do you still want me now?  I have to admit, even though it was a quickie, my foot has fallen in love with your crotch.”  Then I would have kicked him (in the crotch) again.  “Well, if you want another go at it, you know where to find me.”

 

I hate Constatin (even old Constatin). 

I think I get your point. I was rather aggravated that she did that whole thing like "Whoops! Children of the Rakshas! Let's save them all, yay!" and then she NEVER TELLS ASHE. Shouldn't he know? *ahem* They're his children. Or his soul twin's children. Whatever.

---

Avatar by me.

"And then upsp'ke the Fairy Queen,
'Tam Lin, if I had known,
I would have pulled out both your eyes,
To give you eyes of stone.'"

Actually she did tell him. He became extremely upset, simply because he felt responsible for them coming into the world because of the piece of his soul, but not because he felt they were his children. If memory serves, he felt the way Achmed did about them after the fact; they should have all been killed. In fact, Oelendra, Achmed, Anborn, Ashe (though he only found out after it was all over) and I believe even Grunthor all agreed that the children of the Raksha (sp?) should have been eliminated. Only Rhapsody felt that they should be saved, even Constantin. She was, of course, correct. Good thing, too.

Ashe was also upset that Rhapsody took his pain, that same night, remember? He almost were "dragon" on her.

Taking their pain, well that is just the way Rhapsody is. I wouldn't have done it, particularly for the oldest, but then again, I wouldn't have sacrificed myself in a lot of ways that Rhapsody has.

---

Avie pic by me.
Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it. ~ The Blues Brothers (1980)

I know...she told him that they existed. But not that she had 10 (eleven?) needle-taking episodes to take their demon blood away. Sorry, I was a bit unclear before; the Rakshas children did no harm (*coughcough* minus Constantin--he contributed to such things as death, rape, and frostbite) so I personally thought that they should live, though also that killing them would save a lot of time.

--(It's spelled "Rakshas", and from other sources I accidentally found that it's Sanskrit for "demon" :))

Hmm...it seems that Ashe was averse to the whole candle taking pain scenario that she did for him...however, I believe one of them noted afterwards that Ashe had a lot less pain in the heart-area.

I would have done it for Constantin. I would just expect him to apologuise :(

...Wasn't he the one that was tested on? With the needles? That made him one of the most disturbing/intriguing parts of the book.

A lot of the characters speculated that Rhapsody had a sort of ignoring power (ex: confused about the mobs of people) and resilience to "badness" that's unusually strong, so I guess she felt the need to give it to others ?

---

Avatar by me.

"And then upsp'ke the Fairy Queen,
'Tam Lin, if I had known,
I would have pulled out both your eyes,
To give you eyes of stone.'"

I was annoyed (like Achmed, in a way) how she babied Ashe. I thought it was a good thing that she saved all the children of the Rakshas, but how she wanted to "protect" Ashe from the ugliness until it was all over irked me. I'm not sure why it bothered me; it just did. Maybe it was the whole attitude in Rhapsody and Ashe's relationship bothered me. Sometimes you need tough love: he was going to be upset either way. Just break it to him, let him vent, and perhaps he could do something useful, like lending a hand in the quest. Ashe isn't my favorite character, but it bugged me a little how Rhapsody kept him in the dark, like he was a child.

---

"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.