The Cauldron

Did any one feel mortified after reading the section in which Jo finds out that Rhaps and Ashe are a couple and a have been living together for a while?? I think I actually felt my face turn red while I was reading it. I mean, Grunthor and Achmed already knew, and she had to find out by reading that letter in front of everyone. It's so ironic that Jo was the one who openly admitted to being infatuated with Ashe in the first book and, lo and behold, Rhaps falls for him in Prophecy. Who in the world would ever want to have Rhapsody as a rival for ANY man's affection??? I was sincerely embarrassed for Jo after reading that section of the book. I just wanted everyone else's thoughts on this particular matter.

Yeah, I was too. This is one of the only times that I really, really felt bad for Jo. It is also one of the only times that I thought Grunthor should have had a rock thrown ot HIS head! (Only Rhapsody, Achmed or Jo could have even remotely hope to live after doing it, but hey, he needed it after that.) Why didn't he give her the darned letter? Better still, why didn't Rhapsody just come have a talk with her directly? Either way, I felt terrible for Jo to have been blind-sided like that.

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Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it. ~ The Blues Brothers (1980)

LOL.  Hooray for littlesparrow, I actually wrote out an entire post for this very same question with quotations and everything, but I never got around to posting it.  Actually, my post dealt with how badly Rhapsody handled the situation after Jo found out about them.

 

Anyway, my thoughts are that Jo majorly overreacted in that scene.  IMO she was out of character with her childish reaction, she should have played the tough street kid, not the shrinking violet whom just had her crush stolen.

   

IMO, if Jo was in keeping with her established personality, she would have called them all fornicating pigs, and held her ground.  She’s a fighter that one.

 

I agree with Val, what I don’t understand is why Rhapsody let her be alone.  Ashe had the right instincts, he wanted to go after her, but Rhapsody wouldn’t let him.  And then she made up some dumb argument for him not to use his Dragon senses, something about upsetting Achmed.  Up until that point Achmed couldn't have dispised the freeloading Ashe anymore than he already did.  He should've at least been able to use his Dragon sense to see if Jo was physically alright.  What if Jo was so distraught that she went to go hurt herself in some fashion? 

 

It’s like this tv show I once saw.  A female friend asked this guy, “Where’s your girlfriend.”  Then the guy responds, “She said she wanted to be alone.”  Then the female friends says, “Please don’t tell me you're one of those guys that actually leaves a girl alone when she says she wants to be alone.”  Then the guy panics and runs after his girlfriend.

 

And I am not saying that Jo’s feelings weren’t justified, must be hard having a sister like Rhapsody.  Jo's physical appearance is on one extreme, and Rhapsody is on the other, but I am just saying that I think Jo's natural reaction would have been to bury her feelings deep and put on a brave face in front of everybody.  I think EH was just looking for a way to begin the process of killing her off later on in the book.

I completely agree with you guys. First of all, it seemed sort of out of character for Rhaps to decide to tell Jo through a letter. Rhapsody seems like someone who would tell her sister face to face, in private, and make absolutely sure Jo was alright, checking on her from time to time and making sure she didn't ignore Jo and spend all of her time with Ashe. As for Grunthor...I wonder if he REALLY forgot to give the letter to Jo or simply didn't want to see his "lit'le miss's" heart broken.

I can sort of forgive Rhapsody for acting out of character; she was still caught up in that new romance bliss.

 

Hmmm…  but Grunthor forgetting to do something (especially something for Rhapsody) is extremely out of character.  I’m pretty sure he did indeed forget though, because he got embarrassed afterward and said that he was keeping the note close to his heart.  Which also meant that he was wearing the exact same clothes all that time.  *ewwww…  gross*

 

And you might be exactly right about how Rhapsody should have handled it, but I am not a girl, and I don’t have sisters, so I wouldn’t know.

 

I think brothers would have handled the situation entirely differently though.  And by that I mean fisticuffs…  or rock, paper, scissors (best of three).  And winner gets Rhapsody whether she likes it or not.  *always use rock first, because your opponent will usually pick scissors first*  Woohoo!!!  Rhapsody here I come!!!

LOL! That conjured up a crazy image of Achmed and Ashe playing rock-paper- scissors, Achmed with a cocky smirk on his face, as if he is about to win, Ashe with an incredibly flustered expression, eyes bulging out, the sweat pouring off of him at the sudden prospect of losing. Then Rhaps would be in the background with steam coming out of her ears going: "I am not some cow at a cattle auction!"

I felt so bad for Jo when she had to find out.  It was a very difficult part of the story and it seemed one of those times where there were so many little things that all came together to be the cause of one bad thing.  I don't think anyone was really acting out of character.  Rhapsody wanted to give the letter to Jo so that Jo would have time to mull it over for herself.  Whenever you're dealing with "a fighter" as SIA put it, it's best to not be around for the initial reaction.  Rhapsody knew that after Jo brooded over it for a little bit, she'd have to move onto something else for a little while, then when Rhapsody and Ashe came back, the shock wouldn't be there and they'd be able to talk about it.  I would assume Rhapsody would want to talk to her alone for a while and then things could go from there.  Anyway, I can completely see Rhapsody's point on the matter.  Today we have telephones, which is usually the easiest way to deal with saying something bad to someone else.  You're not there, you can hear their voices, and there's only so long someone can yell at a little lifeless piece of plastic. 


The way Jo reacted was a little unusual for her character, but it fit the situation.  She's a fighter, but a fighter knows how to pick fights, and this was one she couldn't win, assuming there was any sort of fight to pick.  What was there to do?  Sure she could yell and cuss and kick and scream at Ashe and Rhapsody, but the truth of it was she was so devestated by the loss of not just being with Ashe, but the dream of it too.  She knew that with the exceptionally beautiful, talented, and kind sister as competition, it was over.  Jo wasn't stupid.  She knew that her charms were nothing comapred to Rhapsody's and to fight for it wasn't worth it.  She couldn't bear the humiliation, the pain, and the comfort she was about to receive so she left.

As for Grunthor... I don't think he forgot to give Jo the letter.  I think that every day he  got up and tried to rehearse what he was going to say to Jo but could never think of something good enough.  Grunthor's not exactly a confident linguistic if he's not talking about bashing heads or eating Lirin.  I think he spent about an hour a day looking at the letter and then pocketing it before saying, "Oi'll do it tomorrow."  Finally all of those tomorrows added up to the day of Rhapsody's return, and Grunthor still didn't know what to do.  So all he did was hope that Rhapsody wouldn't get too mad, and that Jo wouldn't be too hurt.

Finally, Rhapsody's decision to not let Ashe find her unless she wanted to be found was a bad one, but I don't think Rhapsody had really thought that anything bad could happen.  Rhapsody was probably thinking, "She'll sulk and come back when she's ready." No one knew that the Rakshas was near and willing to sieze the moment.  Rhapsody told Ashe not to use his dragon powers as a means to respect Jo's privacy and avoid messing with Achmed.  After all, they'd soon be brothers in law if everything went well.  Might as well attempt to respect each others' territories.

Yeah, I felt pretty bad for Jo at that moment; it was so embarrassing that I wouldn't want to be caught dead in such a humiliating situation like that.

I also think that none of the characters were out of character.  Whenever I read it, it seemed like such a natural scene.  I think that Rhapsody should have been man (hehe) enough to tell Jo herself in person.  It's not like Rhapsody was afraid to tell her, she just wanted to give her time.   But, if she wanted to write a letter to Jo, instead of in words, maybe she could have given Jo the letter herself.  I just think that the whole letter thing was a stupid idea, but Rhapsody was so wrapped up with Ashe.

I completely agree with what you said, res.  I like how you described Grunthor's part.  I never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense with everything we know about Grunthor's personality.  He had to protect everyone he loves.  It's his "curse", as Achmed put it.

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

Yeah, see.  I think Rhapsody had the right idea not to let Ashe go and chase after Jo.  Think about it, how would you feel if you were just told BY THE MAN YOU LOVED that he loved someone else.  Would you really want him coming after you and talking about how he's so sorry and such?  I mean, I'd be even more mad if my crush sat next to me making me feel stupid by asking me if I was okay and such.  That would suck.  No, but Grunthor should have a rock tossed at him for that.  WHY?  I mean, was he afraid that Jo would get mad at him?  Personally, I think Jo acted naturally.  That's one embarrassing moment. 

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A flower that blooms at night is a blessing to the day that follows
Avatar by Me, it's Sylvan.

I also felt embarrassed for Jo.  To confide in someone that is supposed to be your friend and sister and have her act like that, thinking that a letter (that doesn't get delivered) makes it alright.

I thought that everyone was acting pretty much in character.  Grunthor might have just forgot the letter, he was probably more worried about breaking 'the news' to Achmed.  It says that for the first time since they knew each other he would  struggle for words of how to tell him.  Rhapsody didn't even bother to take the time to tell Achmed (or Grunthor either).

Ashe does go after Jo and look for her, he came back because he could not find her.  The end result is that she is enthralled and becomes pregnant by the rakshas.

I was angry at Ashe for being like "Oh, she needs to hear what I have to say.  She needs to talk to me...Blah blah blah".  I was seriously thinking to my self: "You punk!  Leave her alone.  You're the LAST person she needs to hear ANYTHING from"...Am I right?  I mean, seriously.  Ashe can get on a girls nerve some times. 

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A flower that blooms at night is a blessing to the day that follows
Avatar by Me, it's Sylvan.

Jeez, I wasn't one bit embarrassed for Jo - this is probably because I can't stand her! I do,  however, admire her good taste in men and the speed in which she picked up on Ashe's alluring qualities hehe  She reminds me of a few people I know so I could never warm to her. I did feel a twinge of sadness when she died - mostly because it upset Rhapsody and Ashe. I know I sound like  a cold-hearted cow but well.... actually I suppose I must be, I can't argue against it. D

Damn there's no cold-hearted cow smilie, oh well this will have to do for now

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Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad - a light heart lives longest

Actually, Jo was my least favorite character, until  she died.  Then I no longer had to hate her, because she was finally taken care of...yes, thank you, F'dor .  So I hear you about the cold-hearted cow thing, ILG, 'cause I was happy when she died, except for the fact that Rhapsody was so broken up about it.  Why don't they have cold-hearted cow smiley?...I guess the devil face is enough though. :) 

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

When I first read the series through, madhatter, ILoveGwydion, I felt the same way. I was ecstatic about Jo dying! Until I re-read the series and gained a soft-spot for her. Sure, she was annoying as hrekin, but you have to admit the fact that she brought some joy into the Bolg, Rhaps life, and made things rather interesting for a while.

Darn it! Why am I gaining all these soft spots in my core for the likes of them! For Ashe, now Jo... lets just pray that I don't start pitying Micheal.

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Hey I didn't actually like Michael, but I think he made things more interesting than Jo did. But I always found bad guys and villains interesting anyway, or at least characters who aren't good but aren't evil either. I love those shades of gray. But Michael was just evil.

Anyway, I digress. I don't see how Rhapsody found joy from Jo, when all Jo did was hate on her all the time, and complain. I think that Jo was the most pointless character in SoA. She did nothing except to give Rhapsody something to cry about and *note to self: Prophecy thread*. Oh and introduce Rhapsody to Ashe, which was probably the only reason Jo was there.

Okay, I am on a serious Jo rant...I better stop while I am way, wayyyy ahead in my Jo bashing. See what happens when you necro threads, Mri Niun?

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

Wow madhatter! (I knew you would say something like that, and you have a good point there) But I still believe that Jo did bring some enjoyment to Rhapsody's life. Rhapsody couldn't go to Achmed and Grunthor to discuss her "girly," issues, and even though Jo disliked Rhaps at times and wished for her to go away, she didn't necessarily hate her. They were friends and though they had there little arguments, and Jo was difficult to deal with just like any other teenager, Rhaps could feel a sort-of "kinship," with Jo and knew somewhat what the street child was going through. Rhaps gave Jo a safe haven and Jo grew to love her as a sister.

P.S: Eh! Somebody spelled my name right for once!

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"Fire-child, star-child, what is kel? Sword-bearers, song-weavers, that is kel."
-The Faded Sun trilogy by C.J.Cherryh.
My Avatar is my cat, Niun.
*Keeper of The Dictionary of All Symphony of Ages Knowledge & The Ven Polypheme Dictionary Guide.*

Hey, I always spell your name right!

All I have to say was that I was never that angst-y when I was a teenager. But I might be a freak of nature...;)

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

As a teenager myself, it has always bothered me the way Jo is, what, 16? The bratty, angsty teenager effect seemed a little overdone. To me, it felt like she was acting much younger, no maturity at all. Most people have at least some maturity by 16 (by which I mean that they no longer throw tantrums, etc).
I don't know what I'm trying to say here...I guess I'm a little offended by her portrayal. Not that that's in any way reasonable...

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If science could fail,a mountain's a mammal.[..]
--luckily for us,a mountain is a mammal.
~E.E.Cummings

That's what I thought too. It's not unreasonable at all. You would think that living on the streets would give you some maturity or heck I don't know, something less nails-on-a-chalkboard annoying. I just would expect her to act less childish, personally.

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"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
~Edgar Allan Poe
"Darest thou now O Soul, Walk out with me toward the unknown region, Where neither ground is for feet Nor any path to follow."
~Walt Whitman
~Avatar made by Me, madhatter.

The way I see it, is that Jo never had anyone to "mother" her, and so when Rhapsody came along willing to treat her like a big sister or mother would, Jo was overwhelmed and took advantage of a good thing - wanting to make up for all the lost time that she never had that type of unconditional love bestowed to her. 

The problem with Rhapsody was that Jo could never "live up" to her example fully - she would never be as beautiful or as willing to be open to love as Rhapsody was, which in my eyes caused a conflict that pitted Jo's "good" side against her "survival" side - a woman/child who didn't really know her place in the world. 

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"No, they're not real, but thanks for noticing"! WoW Dwarf Female /silly
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